|
Maurie
Reiber August 26, 2002
We are in Maurie Reiber’s home on August 26th in the morning and this is Cara Doyle. Maurie, thanks for agreeing to do this process with me. I want to start with when you first arrived in Colorado. Tell me where you were born, and how you ended up coming over here? Well, I was born in 1930 and lived in Nebraska until 1940, when my younger brother, who had asthma, we had to relocated here because of his health. So we moved here in 1940 and …but my uncle already lived here; matter of fact, they lived over here in Fairplay. Really! Who was your uncle? Henry Reiber. Henry Reiber… what was he doing up here? He was placer mining north out of town, those dredge holes on Beaver Creek. Now was your father a miner? No, not really. He was basically a steamfitter, sheet metal man, thing of that nature. Heating and air conditioning…business, sheet metal business. So when you moved here, where did you move to? Denver. So you remember where you lived? Yeah, 4963 Clayton Street, when we moved here. And I didn’t Denver very well. Is that right downtown, or … No, it’s northeast Denver. And what did they do when they do when you first got here? Do you remember what they did? He worked at Eaton Metal Pipes. And what’s your dad’s name? His name is Carl. Carl with a ‘C’? Yup. And what was your mom’s name? Carolyn. Do you remember her maiden name? Betz. And where was she originally from? She was born in Campbell, Nebraska. Did you mom - - was she a homemaker or… Yeah, yeah she was a homemaker. Tell me about life as a kid in Denver. What was Denver like? There was nothing exciting! Tell me, what was the neighborhood like? A lot smaller than what it is now, that’s for sure. We well, we lived in town as you may call it, we had six lots and we had chicken (inaudible) two, three chickens and big garden and all that (inaudible) for farmers. Everybody? Well, not everybody, but we did. So what did you raise for farmers besides the chickens? We had a big garden – tomatoes, corn and all that stuff. And then did they sell those, or was that mostly for families? Mostly for family use. My mother would can it all. What would that area be now for someone just … Swansea they call it. Swansea? Yeah. So was that mostly a farming area? Did everybody have a fairly big area? There was back in the 40’s a lot of you know, I guess you call them truck ?worms? People were using them for cucumbers and stuff and then they were all - - after the Second World War, they broke all those up which you know … Is that when they started subdividing? It would be like in a square block, there’d be one or two houses you know and the rest of the ground would all be farmed, see. And then they after the war, for the most part, the farms went and they built houses. Ad a kid, what kind of things did you do for fun there? Worked. My folks believed in working so … When you say working, you mean like farm chores? We had six - -see the folks they had six lots and there’s a garden to be - - and hoeing and there’s always work. What other kinds of things did you have to do for chores? We had a wood stove so you bring in the coal and bring in the wood. Okay, so take care of the chickens I’m guessing? Feed the chickens? Oh yeah, feed the chicken and we had a calf that we raised - penned her up and but mainly interim rabbits. Some year we raised rabbits but it was primarily the chickens because my mother would breed a lot of chickens. Fired chicken roast, chicken noodle soup, the whole thing! Then - - and she’d sell a few of them, but for the most part - - then when they were about you know, two or three pounds or whatever, she’d go in and then they’d butcher them and put them in freezers. Of course, you didn’t have a freezer then, they had lockers that you went to. Like a commercial space you mean? Commercial space, yeah. They called it - - you’d say, “Go to the locker,” which meant the freezer, where she had freezers in there and so she’d dress the chickens and everything and put them in the locker. So when you say locker, you had your own like individual kind of space, like a closet space? Space in the whole building where there were a lot of lockers where people had frozen food. And so you had one particular little space that was yours and you’d go in . Was it like a walk-in? No, no. It wasn’t that big. And how would that have been from home? That was…that was probably getting, I’d say about a mile and a half. So she’d have to driver there to go in and get food out of there so she’d go there and get two, three four chickens out of there bring them home, eat them over the next few days anyhow. Mm-hmm. Now did you have some kind of like of fruit cellar or something? What about all the vegetable and things? Yeah we had a fruit cellar, too. Was that part of the house, or was that separate? No, that was separate. It was separate over you know, we’d keep the bags of potatoes and stuff like that and then … Was it a building or was it like dug into the ground? It was dug into the ground or just a small portion of it was up out of the ground, but there was doors like you were going down into a basement and you’d open the door and go into that. A lot of stuff, canned goods that she canned, then it was all fixed up down there and there were shelves. Anyhow, the orchards, there would be a bunch of plums she’d can apples and then she’d buy peaches and stuff when they were you know, in the fall. Like now, she’d be buying peaches and canning them and then catsup and you name it. All that stuff. It sounds like she really was the food provider! Or was your dad out in the field and then she was doing this in the house? Well he was - - no, dad worked at the Eaton Metal Pipes as a welder. Is that the company, Heaton Metal Products? Eaton Metal Products. Oh, Eaton, like E-a-t-o-n. Yeah, they’re still there, still on York Street. Really! Yeah, they build underground tank for the most part. How many kids did you have in the family? There were five of us. I had a younger - - my younger brother, but he was a twin but he passed away there in 1937; Jerry’s twin brother, Harold. Can you name them for me so I can get those down? My older brother is Melvin but he’s dead; he drowned up in the Flaming Gorge Reservoir on a fishing excursion. Mmm. Melvin? Yeah, Melvin was his name. He was the oldest? He was the oldest. Who was next in line? Me… and then I have a sister Joann and we call her Joan, J-o-a-n and then I have another sister, Shirley. 10.10 Shirley. And then Jerry. Okay, and then there was one more was the last - - was it Harold was the last? Yeah, yeah. And he passed away, he was the twin? 1937. I think my oldest brother Melvin passed away if I remember, it must have been 1973 I think. He’s been dead for 31 years. What did you all do as kids? Besides working! You must have done some fun trouble-making stuff! Homework. Homework. My folks were really… Really strict? Yeah, there was no Mickey-Mouse stuff. Well, you know, playing tag or whatever after, but when it was time to come in we got chores to do, you have homework to get at and … Where did you go to school? So were they too strict or did you think that was the right way to handle things? I mean, at that point I really didn’t know anything different. But they were strict. Was that that kind of staunch German heritage?
Yeah,
because
they’re
parents
were
strict
and it’s
just the
way - -
that’s
the way
they did
things,
you know? No, my father was born in Russia. In Russia! Yeah, Volga-Deutsch, born on the Volga River. The Germans went from Germany to Russia and so that’s where my father was born. How did he come over? On a boat. At what age? He was two. But he came over, if I remember right, it was 1907 if I remember right. He was born in 1904. 1907 you think he came? That’s when he came over. I think he was two years old. Did he tell any stories about - -I mean I would think his folks that would have been a tough transition. Did he talk about that at all? Well, other than I remember telling when he started school, he couldn’t speak a word of English, but it was total immersion because even though the teacher was German, they wouldn’t speak in anything but English. Let’s get back to your being raised in Denver; what school did you go to? Swansea and then to Cole – Cole Junior High and then to Manuel High School. Were all in that same general neighborhood? Did you stay put or were you moving around? The schools, you know we rode a school bus except when you get to high school, then there was no - - you had to use the tramway to get to school. The tramway? Yeah (inaudible). Tell me what that was about. You still have the Denver tramway – the bus routes. Okay. The only difference was the fare was a nickel! What else can you tell me about that time for someone who doesn’t know Denver then? Were there ball games? Were there places to go like dancing in high school? What were the shops downtown? No, no we didn’t have time for that. Rarely we would go to the movie. How much was a movie? A dime. Then they raised it to 14 cents, then16 cents, then I think… Could you get popcorn? Oh yeah, they had popcorn. How much was popcorn? Gosh, I don’t remember – I think it was a nickel or something like that. Then they had ice cream bars. They had ice cream bars there in theaters. Either popcorn or ice cream bars. As a kid, do you remember any movies that struck you? Or who would have been the big stars during that time. What was it like? You know, we saw the Disney movies: Cinderella and I remember I always liked that Cinderella when I was a kid. And then the westerns – Hop A’Long Cassidy and (inaudible). Sometimes on Saturday morning when we had all the chores done and everything - - all the wood in and everything else, my brother and I, we’d walk to the theater and go see the movie, Saturday afternoon. What would the typical movie include? You know how they used to have things before the movie; did they have those then? Yeah, previews? Yeah, or next week’s attractions. Did they have cartoons or did they have - - now I’m thinking we’re getting close to the wartime. Yeah. Someone talked about like news? Oh yeah, they always had the news you know, what’s happening in the war. And that was before the movies started? Yeah, either that or at the intermission between the two movies. Sometime they’d have - - generally it was a double feature and then they’d have the news and the cartoon in between the two movies. It seems to me as a kid that would be really scary to see that war stuff in the middle and being in the theater. They always re-listen - - of course there was no TV so the folks listened to the radio and they’d tell where different troops were at and all this. I remember we were over at my aunt’s house and on December the 7th of ‘41 when that war started and Roosevelt was on. “I don’t want war,” and all this bit, you know. What were you doing, were you having dinner at your aunt’s house? Yeah, that day. And do you remember when he came on the radio? Yeah, I remember they were listening to the radio and he was on, giving his speech and I remember that the folks and my aunt and uncle was upset that America had gone to war. Did that frighten you as a kid, or were just too little to understand what that meant? I think that’s true; I really didn’t understand at that point in time. In that point in time, I was only eleven years old, so I don’t really remember. How did that impact set around your house. Do you remember things changing when the war started?
Well, of
course
there was
rationing
and you
can only
get so
sugar and
so much
meat, and
then you
had
stamps if
you had
to get
somebody
shoes but
no, we
did
alright.
Of
course,
during
the war,
it was
raising
the - -
my mother
raised
chickens
and so… My mother, she’d always, even during the Depression in the 30’s, now that was when it was really tough, coming from Nebraska. Tell me about that. Well, you liked potatoes. All the time? There was times when there was lots of potatoes. Were you farming there, too? Did they have some kind of a farm? We did for - - but then the folks couldn’t make it on the farm. They left the farm and moved to town. Dad could make more money in the (inaudible). It was called the sheet metal shop, where he worked there. When he worked. He made two bits an hours and as soon as there was no work, why, he went home. When they ran out, it could have been any time of the day and that was it. No work, you’re out of there. You mentioned – was it a brother who had asthma? Yeah, my younger brother. Was that difficult with medical expenses and things or treatments? They managed to get by. They really didn’t do a lot of those treatments and stuff as I recall. It’s just that he wheezed so bad, he couldn’t breathe. Which brother was this? Jerry. Jerry. And then after we moved here, well then, to Colorado… That did help? Oh yeah. Can you tell me about any store names or anything that you remember from Denver where you went to get clothing or… They had Safeway stores going way back when and then the men’s store was Joe Albert’s. Joe Albert used to have a store in Alma also… a branch in Alma. Oh, you’re kidding me! Also a branch in Alma back when Alma you know, during the 30’s. What did he sell? Clothes; men’s clothes for the most part. Work clothes, dress clothes. Joe Albert’s was a real prominent men’s store there in Denver. Of course, then you had JC Penny and Montgomery Ward. You said your uncle was living yup here in Fairplay. Did you come up and visit during that time when you were little? No, no we were still living in Nebraska for the most part and no, he mined here I think during the 30’s and I think it was ’38 or ’39 and then he lost his lease on his property and so then he… And tell me again his property was…what was it called; the Alma Placer was it? No, it’s not the Alma Placer. It’s in Beaver Creek north out of town. So he lost his lease then. Did he go mine elsewhere? Yeah, he went up to Montana and lost everything up there, so when we moved here then in 1940, he was working at a bar as a bartender, but he never lost his love for mining. Is that where it comes from for you? Did he share some of that with you or where did you start getting involved in that? You just sounded so far away! If you’re in Denver and the folks are farming and … I remember in the 30’s, I think it was ’37, I was living on those dirt farms there south of Hastings and he came one day in a brand new car and a suit and tie and the whole bit, you know. “Who’s that?” I didn’t know who that was. “That’s your Uncle Henry.” And I remember he had a little jar, a mayonnaise jar full of gold nuggets and the smallest one was about like that (gesturing) that came out of there. It was as big as a fingertip. So he was going back to Detroit and New York, wherever it was you get backers in there and use that - - I remember I was impressed tat the time, the weight of the jar. That little jar. Yeah, for a kid. While I was holding it, he had his hands under it. He said,” Drop it (inaudible) break or whatever. So I’d find all the gold in there. It was all fine, it was… Shiny and… Yeah. Was that your first exposure to gold; to mining gold? yes. The first gold that I can remember seeing - other than what people bring to me - placer gold. So tell me from your - - let’s see, you were in high school in Denver, then where did you go from there and how did you connect into this mining? Then we mined up in - - or had a claim in the (inaudible) Mine region out in New York. But we had this prospect up in Boulder County which was uranium. Now where did this start? Because if your folks were in Denver, how did you get this claim? What was the first “jump” into it? At that point, there was this fellow, Cecil was his name, and so we went in partners on this prospect. And this is – you’re in high school? You’re graduated? No, this was in ‘52, ’53. No, I was already married then. So you graduated from high school; where did you go then? I didn’t graduate. Oh, you quit? Yeah, and went to work. To do what? Well, I was working in a warehouse and learned welding - welding and sheet metal. That was my father’s business, you know. Was that because your family needed the money or why did you quit? No, like I said, you worked, you know. You was born and worked in (inaudible) and I went to work to work when I was - I think the first time I was fourteen. I worked ever since. Why did you quit school? ‘Cause you can more working in those days! Okay. Alright. So you’re working this welding and then what? Then I went into the Air Force in 1939. Okay and where were you stationed? In Texas and then down in Florida. What did you do for the Air Force? Typewriter mechanic. Strange, but … (Laughter) Needs to be done! They told me I was a typewriter mechanic and I said, “Oh no, that’s the furthest thing I am.” “Oh no, you’re a natural-born typewriter mechanic.” So I was a typewriter mechanic. How long were you in? Then I was a year in Florida there in Texas and Florida and then I got discharged and then when the Korean started, I got called back in. “The Truman Year,” we called it and then I was stationed out of Lawry Field and then also down in Mississippi. Gulf Port, Mississippi. So I was - - all those times I was a typewriter mechanic. So I figured I’d discharge out of that, my father was in the sheet metal business, so then I went in with him in that. Where was that? Was that still in Denver? In Denver. So we were (inaudible) every year as a (inaudible) but then also at the same time, we was getting into the mining thing and mining different mines. Originally we had four mines up on Mt. Lincoln. How did you “jump?” Did you meet someone from up here? Was there someone in town that you knew? Yeah, well we knew - - Uncle Henry had a couple of sons, Wilfred and ? Reiny? (Phonetic). Reiny used to live up there in Alma. You probably knew Reiny. Mm-mm. (negative). See, he moved up by see that house that had “Reiber” on it. Which one is that? Yeah, well you knew where the lumberyard is. Mm-mm (negative). You know where the lumber yard is! Where the barn is? Where Tim Johnson has his shop there, that barn? Yeah, well, that was the old lumber yard. Yeah, then it’s on south I’d say from there is where he had the place there. He sold it here three or four years ago already. But Reiny used to work with Uncle Henry in the mine but then he also had another son, Wilfred. And Wilfred married Regina Treweek. Now you know the Treweek’s there in Alma – there’s a Treweek plot? I don’t know them either! That’s why I’m talking to you. No! Yeah, Regina - - see now, regretfully, you couldn’t talk to her because she’d tell mining stories all day and all night. If you went to her house, she would keep you spellbound because she’d been - - she had a voice and you’d just hang on every word that she’d tell because they had there in Alma the boarding house and a lot of miners stayed there. Okay. And then after you know, they had their boarding house supper, or she’d tell it or whatever, then they’d sit around the big old stove and they’d tell all these stories about all of these mines! And she was a little girl at that time and a lot of these people that I’m running these here for names occasionally, I can remember her telling about! Oh, neat! Is she passed away? Oh yes, she’s long dead. So is (inaudible). And so they’ve been up here for quite a long time it sounds like. Yeah, see the Treweek’s, I think Regina said that her grandfather or whatever was up here 1858 or something, some original - - oh, yeah. See he - - the town of Alma was on the Grose and Treweek Placer. Did you ever see the layout of the town? I haven’t seen that. Well here – take a look. He’s showing me a map on the wall; since we’re on tape, I can’t show you. Let’s see where we’ve got them all… here, right here (gesturing) So they were … The Grose and Treeweek. Grose and Treweek. Placer and then they had - -the Treweek’s had a home here in (inaudible) the boarding house (inaudible) So that was one of the first placers. And so they’d mined up here for … they were up here for a long time. I think they - - see, they still have in their family and I think they’ve had them since 1886 when these three claims up here (inaudible). Who would have those now? My cousins. So they got you into all this and started - - did you start … We used to - - see, when we was mining up there and then one day as I recall, and Wilfred said, “Well, why don’t we go up on Mt. Lincoln and see what we can find their mines.” Because they had inherited those mines and eventually they bought out all the rest of the owners in those three mines. And so then Wilfred and Regina owned those mines. They inherited it from her folks? Yeah. Those mines are still in that same family after all that time. Where was the boarding house? There in Alma. What would that be now, is it still there? I believe so, but you know, I don’t remember how it used to be. Somebody’s fixed it up and so I’ve lost - - it used to be there beside the Miner Inn over at - -we used to get our water out of the Moynahan Spring there when there was no water in Alma. So it’s somebody’s now then. Yeah, somebody - - I believe so, but then one you want to talk to about that is Eric. He the one who would know all that stuff. Remind me again, how were they related to you? They were … Wilfred is my first cousin. Regina was his wife. Regina Treweek. They were close friends. Regina and Eric’s mother were very close friends. Regina and Eric Swanson’s mom? Yeah. And what was her name? Snell. She originally was a Snell - that was Sadie Snell’s sister. So they were all (inaudible). Tape One Side B Ok, so we’re talking Alma and the Treweek’s. So you guys went into some kind of prospecting ventures it sound like. You went to some of those mines. We went up there to take a look at his - - because at that time - - and I went to CU for different geology courses and mineralogy for two or three years. So you were kind of studying this on your own to learn more about it. Oh yeah, I had quite a bit of time with Colorado geology and economic geology and mineralogy and all that bit and so Wilfred wanted to stay and go up there and take a look at it and so we went up there took a look at it and this, that and the other. This is up on the … On Mt. Lincoln. Okay. And so then we got the Lulu and Tornado. Now you’ll have to say - this is all Greek to me – Lulu and Tornado, all those different claims? Yeah, they’re two claims there. And that’s also on Lincoln? Grandview and Mohawk so when we started up on Mt. Lincoln, we owned those four claims. What was the last one? Grandview and Mohawk. Mm-hmm (affirmative) so then the years went by and so we buy this, buy that… And where were you coming up with this money? Where was the money coming from? Were you finding gold in place and selling it? No, for the most part it was we would get money from out of the heating and air conditioning business that I was in… and so we were in. Then originally it was my father and my brother and I and then eventually, my brother had bought out my father, and then eventually I bought my brother. Were you living in Denver during this time or were you up here? For the most - - well, we lived in Alma. We had two houses in Alma and then we used to own the old B&B garage building. That’s where we kept all of our mining stuff, in the B& B garage building. Was the heating and air conditioning business up here or down in Denver? It was in Denver. So you were probably going back and forth? Yeah, we went back and forth, especially during the summertime. Well, my brother spent a lot more time up here that what I did and so then, I think it was in ’67, and we leased everything to this company out of Houston and there’s a 99 year lease so we started selling off everything. We sold off our equipment and … Mmm. Jack lathes and gold ?steel? And all the equipment and everything because we didn’t think we’d ever mine again. Really. We thought that we were out of it and … then they kept the property I think for about four years and then they threw up the lease and so we had the property back then. And you’d sold all the stuff you needed to mine. We sold … to mine with. What was this company in Houston? I think it was Columbia Resources. Do you know why they gave it up? Was it just not as profitable as they had hoped or… I really don’t know what all their reasons were; just all of a sudden, they didn’t want the property. I don’t if it wasn’t what they expected or whatever. Can you give me any sense, when you’re talking about buying these things, what kind of money are we talking at that time? The claims I’d say all the way buying them for taxes to $5,000 a claim. Was that a lot of money at that time? $5,000 to me was a lot of money. Okay. I’m wondering how risky was it when you guys were doing this as far as – were you putting up every cent you had? Oh no, but I mean obviously, we could have spent it someplace else, but now a quick look at that map, you’d see what it is … (inaudible; stepped away from the microphone). Do you see where Mt. Lincoln is there? (gesturing). Mm-hmm (affirmative). When you did this, how did it typically work? You had this property; did you hire people to work it, did you go up and look for gold? No, we did it. My brother and I for the most part did it and we did most of the mining and we stock-piled down there in Alma. Stock-piled? Yeah, we’d bring it off the hill and stock-pile it. I want people to understand who don’t know mining, did you bring loads of rocks down; did you get the gold up there and just bring the gold back? Oh, there wasn’t gold, it was silver. Silver. Okay. What were you bringing down – were these truckloads or did you actually get the silver out of the rocks while you were still up there? Oh no, no. How did it work? Silver comes in rocks. As a matter of fact, see this rock over? (gesturing) Here’s a close-up view and you can see the sulphurets; it’s the black in there. So he’s showing me - - what did you call them, silver sulphurets? Yes, uh-huh. So it’s rock, and it’s got these duller colors in it and that the silver that you can extract eventually. Mm-hmm, yeah. So you’d bring these rocks down from the mine. Well, we don’t extract it. So you sell it just like this? After we stock-piled it in Alma, then we hired old Mac McKinney, who was in the trucking business in Fairplay and he hauled it down to the S&R plant. They didn’t smelt there, but they had a buying station where you would buy. So that’s where we sold it and then eventually they’d grind it and then it’s shipped down to, at that time, El Paso, Texas. How did you get paid for that? Was it what they - - when they ground it what they found or… Well, they grind the rock and then they keep quartering it and sampling and finally get down and then they have assays. And they assay in this portion, a new assay and then a portion goes to the umpire assayer. Okay. And then you settle. So it’s kind of an average of what the three of you came up with? Yeah, the umpire assayer finally – we said there was more, they said was less and then you … whatever the date is as I remember, you take the price out of the paper ninety days after it because from the time you take the ore, see the price of silver could change and in those days, it was fluctuating a lot. Every day you’d look at the paper to see what the price of silver was and then we knew what date we would be looking for in the paper because that would be the price that we were paid for. Ninety days after. I think it was ninety days because that’s how long it takes them to process to where they would have the silver to where they could sell it. Can you give me any sense of what it was going for then? Oh gosh, I don’t really recall… naturally we thought he should run higher than it did. How did that - - was it by the ounce? Oh yeah, ounces per ton. Can you give me any range…how much an ounce would be? I think we finally settled up at around 49 or 50 ounces for the most part. Like fifty dollars, or what do you mean? No, ounces per ton. Oh, ounces per ton. As I remember in those days, I think the price was somewhere around $1.30, $1.40 or something like that…. Ounce. Ounce. But then it’s done by the ton. Well, you - - as your total ounces that you had. What year are we in or what kind of time? That was in the early ’60s, because back then … How does that compare to now? Now the price is what? Four dollars and forty some-odd cents I think it was trading. No, we can’t mine today. Because … The price. Now you just said it’s four times as much, so I’m assuming it costs you that much more. Well, labor costs for good miners. Miner’s costly. I’m too old …and this is why obviously the price at the time when that company out of Houston let the property go, it was because the price of the silver and how much is in the rock all this bit didn’t justify if they could make enough money. (inaudible) There’s a lot of good mines in this area. There’s mines all over the place. A lot of good mines that could be worked. But it’s too expensive to. The price of the metal is too low to pay to mine and then you look at it and even now, we know what is there and we can see that we’re not going to sell it because the price is too low. Can you give me any idea of what it was like – you said you actually did the work. Where you using picks, were using big equipment; can you give me a sense as if you went up to a mine, what were you wearing, how cold was it, what did you use? Very cold. Well, for the most part we open-pitted this cut on the Double Eagle where we got the majority... What do you mean “open-pitted?” It was an open cut the ore deposit is right on the surface so… What did you use to get it out? You put the “dozer” and push the … A bulldozer? To take the loose material off, to expose the deposit and then we would drill and blast to break the rock. It would be just you and your brother up there, or did you have guys helping? My father sometimes he’d be up helping when he was younger. Later years, he didn’t go up there anymore. So he had a heart attack (inaudible) in the sixties ’62 or ’62 after that, he didn’t go up there anymore. What was the town like then? In the times that you were mining, were there lots of miners around? How were the relationships? There’s just got all mining people in Alma at that time. Do you have any idea of how many people lived here then? No, I don’t. Of course, I remember old Fairplay, you know, Pocock’s is gone, Grandma Hand the hotel and that was good chicken-fried steak. We’d drive fifty miles just to eat at the Hand Hotel to get that chicken-fried steak! Really! When was this? You betcha! Back in the ‘50s. Did you know Grandma Hand? Saw her; I didn’t really recall talking to her really that much but … People have talked about their pie. Oh yeah, the pie, yeah. But those chicken-fried steak, I don’t know - - I think they even said one time where she got those steaks but there was a chicken-fried steak! And I tried chicken-fried steak all over, but that was the best. Was it pretty wild? You hear some kind of crazy stories about the mining days. All the bars… Well, the mining was none too great, but that’s not unusual for you to go in … of course, in the old days on Saturday night, old Deacon Judd. Did you ever know Deacon? Did you meet him? I didn’t meet him, but I hear about him quite a lot talking to folks. Oh yeah. What was he like? He’s was a character! Him and Birdie run in the old Park Bar…but on Saturday night, we would always come down off the hill early so we could wash behind our ears and go to the old Park Bar because he played guitar… What was going on? And Jerry Jalway’s wife, Merlyn, played the piano and those two could make music that was… so we’d go down there. Did people dance? The place is pretty small, there wasn’t too much room for dancing. There was just a small where people danced, you know but …she made “Birdie sandwiches”. She made a ham sandwich. You can’t believe – you couldn’t hardly eat that thing! That was - - and she’d boil it, ham, whatever her recipe for baking that ham and those ham sandwiches were something. That was another thing, going through the old Park Bar to get “Birdie sandwiches”. Was this before or after the place up Mosquito Gulch? Place up in Mosquito gulch? Someone told me that they owned the place up Mosquito Gulch. Oh, that’s where the house was. Okay, that’s where they lived. Well, they lived there. Then they owned the Park Bar. Yeah, owned the park Bar, yeah. Do you know how many people were mining during that time or how mines were going? Oh, it wasn’t too much. As I remember, Harold Horn was in the Hocking, there’s lots of people who’s up on the Hilltop, Jerry Galloway, who was working for awhile in the Sweet Home and then he had the ? Twinkler? or whatever it was up on Four Mile someplace or up close to the Hilltop right there on the right up on Sherman somewhere in that country. Did you help each other out or was it competitive? Oh yeah. You’d known everybody you know if you had subbed and somebody found out you had something, and needed it, you’d help out. Loan stuff and equipment and all and miners were always very helpful towards each other and if you found out somebody needed a hand or something, you’d always give them a hand. One day we sold old ?power? we had a big winch, about a three-quarter spool. Jerry Galloway was working at the London at that time. Anyhow, his son was working up there and shoved the mine car off the dump and he (inaudible) hit the spot and so Jerry (inaudible) goes up on Lincoln and run us down. So we brought the old car wagon and sneaked out the cable and drug the thing back up and set it back up on the track. You know help miners can be. And you’d always go --- another guy’s mine look and see what he’s mining or he had and everything else. No, it was very close. Alma was a whole different town on those days. It was all miners. What were the conditions like for you up there? That’s a pretty high altitude mining for these guys. Yeah, yeah. When the wind blows and snow up there, it gets cold. What did you do to keep warm? When you’re underground, it really isn’t all that bad because although it’s 22 degrees there, is still a lot better than being outside and when the weather … Were you ever able to mine year round? We didn’t, no we’d - - one year we worked up until November, which is abnormal here. Another year I remember on September and we was up there in Alma and the - - I think it was Labor Day but even at that, we’d just were going to go up on the hill and work and walked outside and it was 16 inches of snow! That ended it that year! (Laughter) That was that! So I mean with us, and without - - well, we’d bring the cat down every year and park it down there in Alma just so that we’d have it to go up the next year to clean the rotor out to get up on the hill again. Otherwise, you’d have to figure it would be late June or July before you’d get up there. Did you have to break it open? I’ve heard guys talking about breaking ice. Oh, yeah. Tell me what that - - what is it that will get it down? You mean out of the rotor or out of the mine? Out of the mine, when you first get up after winter? Oh yeah, well, the mines freeze up every year. It freezes all the way to the back and to the rooftop. With snow or with ice or… Ice. Ice and snow. For the most part, see our summers always – it’s so cold in there the ground water gets in. When it gets in, it freezes and so it keeps building up and building up and so pretty soon, it’ll ice all the way up. Now, there are mines that are iced up now you know… And this is August. Some clown trying to bust in - - my son was here a couple of weeks ago and I had some looked like somebody plowed in and grazed our ?median? just trying to keep them out before goes in and gets themselves killed someplace you know. But also when I went to the Redmen Tunnel and first that thing opened, pried is this thing – there’s a three-quarter steel bar and they stole it and bent that thing off. No kidding! And so they got in there - - well, we had a wheel-bar on there and so - - that reminds me; I should have went to the Sheriff’s office and turned that in. Stole the wheel-bar and a couple of shelves there, but they couldn’t get in the mine thank goodness, because it’s iced all up to the back so they couldn’t get in the mine. So these people know what they’re doing do you think? They’re just causing trouble trying to get free stuff? They’re (inaudible) See, inside the Russia, you go in there and I mean there’s over a mile of underground workings in there and things to fall over and then you have some winzes you know, and so some idiot gets in there and you don’t have lights and you don’t always walk, and you don’t always know and you can end up at the bottom of that and never get out because the isn’t no ladder … and different places. You can’t get out. Did you have trouble with this years ago? People breaking in? Mm-hmm (affirmative). We’ve had problems ever since we’ve owned the property. The scavengers and thieves - and it was a nice building - what used to be the old Lincoln - which was when the original mines on the mountain - - there was a building there! It was built in 1871 and ’72 and that building was still there and still is. Although, you know, it had holes in it but it was still - - we were up on the hill at different times when the weather would all of a sudden would come up with a heck of (inaudible) ice, sleet and the wind blowing and you can’t hardly stand to be in it. You can’t face it and we would get shelter. We would go in there and when you’re on up there and some (inaudible) has his truck up there and had all the remains of the building. In his truck? Yes. He took the building! He tore it down. Just tore it down. He wanted the wind-blown boards to make picture frames. And here a building stands for a hundred – well, at that time, it would have been over a hundred ten years – and all the elements up there on Lincoln and so... I have a very dim view them people. Yes, I don’t blame you. Did you mine anything besides the silver? Primarily that was a silver miner up there. That’s primarily it. Of course, I’d (inaudible) zinc or gold but silver was what we were mining for. The mountain is primarily - - although there were different formation in - - but that the upper (inaudible) of Mt. Lincoln and the sediments, the limestones and that’s where the silver…see this base here? (gesturing) This is limestone. So that would have meant this rock with limestone and then that silver sulphurets? Yeah. During this time you were mining, we’ve skipped over your family, so I don’t want to miss out on them. When did you get married? 1951. What’s your wife’s name? Marie. Marie? And what about kids? There are three; my oldest daughter, Janet, passed away. Janet? Two days ago was her birthday and she would have been fifty. Oh, I’m sorry. My son John and he’s 48 I guess and then my youngest daughter, Diane. Have any of them followed your mining passion? Well, Johnny, he’s up there all the time. Now he’s not here. Last year (inaudible) president of Black Mountain Gas in Arizona so he bought a house there and so he’s there now, although I understand he’s in debt. He sold the company but is going through all the regulatories and (inaudible) so she should be back so… And are you mining now at all? No, no. We just go and see (inaudible) and the mines are still… Keep it safe. Keep things locked up. Of course, then you know, Dean is - - we were looking at North Star Mountain and (inaudible) About potential mining there? Yeah, he’s doing a report on it at the present time. For someone who wasn’t familiar with this life, what would want people to know about the big mining days here? Mining today is pretty tough nut to crack with all the - - between the Federal and the state and the local regulations and all the Mickey Mouse you’ve got to go through. Who controls that here? No you have the situation with the metals prices. Of course, metal prices is the main thing because mining is really not a (inaudible). If there’s money to be made, it’d be like the stories and it’s shame that ? Crine? is not alive. Maybe he told some of these stories to Eric and maybe on how many people lived in Alma during the thirties in tents and everything else because they were just panning just the dirt. You can even pan the dirt in Alma and make about five bucks a day and you see, during the Depression, five bucks a day was lots of money. As I remember, it was up near to (inaudible) or someplace; I couldn’t believe that the people could live in Alma in the ‘30s so it’s all economics. Price of gold gets up again, price of silver - hopefully it will come back. Like I said, I still feel Alma is one of the richest mining districts there is, period. I mean, the average value of the ore mined is so much higher than some of the other places. There’s a lot of good mines here. Eventually they’ll be working them. What really did it was silver mining, especially where there was in 1893, but price of silver; how many people – I just heard – the next day, three banks closed in Denver and within a week or two, there was 45,000 people who were unemployed in 1893. And tell me why was that? 1893? Yeah, that did it. That’s when silver was demonetized and as I understand it, it’s because… Was that like a set price? Yeah, the price went down. The price the government guaranteed for the silver? I don’t think it was the government, I think it was more or less an arrangement between England and India on buying and they’d honor their unused in coinage or something. I think is why the price of silver all of a sudden went down and A lot of mines have not worked up here since that time when she woke up from the … Since the late 1800’s. 1893 and you see different places and, “That’s a mine back there.” If you were to open that, it’d be the way (inaudible) in the best of time. The way they left them; the miners walked off. A lot of the mines up on my … It literally looks like they left that day. Yeah. Back in the ‘50s when we started Lincoln, there was miners’ shacks all over the place and you’d go up there and there’d be anvils and there’d be tools, and there’d be drill steel and … Just sitting in those shacks, waiting for them to come back to work. Yeah. You’d see, the miners just left you know, they’d come back. Of course then the scavengers come and now you can’t even see any of the buildings. First they went up there and they stole all the tools and there was mine cars; there was things all over. You’re talking what, fifty, sixty years after that. Well, where the mine cars were, that was in the Russia and Russia worked there in the ‘20s and I think ‘29 (inaudible) the economic situation then and then silver went down to - finally during the Depression - got down to 32 cents or something like that in which case, they stopped mining everything then. Already in the ‘20s they had pulled out of the Russia, but the old boarding house and everything, it was still all up there when we got it; the bunks where the guys lived. Is some of this on Forest Service land? Who controls some of this land? Some of it, in spots in between for the most part, some of those bigger pieces are locations that are actually in the Forest Service. But the other is all patented mining property, which … And when you patent it, what do you mean? You (inaudible) this piece of ground here. So it is yours. Oh yes. You’re not leasing it’s yours and you own it. Right. How have the regulations changed through those years? How has that changed what you have to do? Oh gosh! You can’t even breathe! You need permits, permits and everything. I’ve come to the point in my life where I despise the word ‘permit.’ You can’t even breathe without a permit. It’s not even logical anymore. Now I remember I belonged to a mining association in one year to show you – this is a few years back now – I went to the small miner’s breakfast and of course, all of the old mining people were there and they’re complaining about the whole thing. So the speaker gets up there and he starts talking, “Well, what’s wrong with the mining issues,” etc. and he said, “They’ve got some rules and regulations and laws in this country. For the most part, the larger mining companies have packed up and went someplace else!” I mean, you can’t do mining … Other countries you mean. Yeah and the jobs and you look at miner’s … see, if you really check it out, Park County, even up to a few years ago, mining was the leading… END OF TAPE 1 SIDE B TAPE 2 SIDE A We’re continuing, we were talking about the meeting about all the regulations and how things have changed. So the speaker gets up there and he starts talking: “What’s happening in the mining industry?” And he’s talking about the big companies and so many of them have the operations now in other … Other countries. Where they want the miners to come bring your money and all this bit and he said in the United States, he figures is the worst and then he says, “And then you get in to the United Sates and you figure that Colorado is about the worst.” No kidding! “Then you get into the counties and then we figure,” - and he doesn’t know me and I don’t know him or anything else – “We figure that Park County is about the worst.” When you say the worst, the most restrictions? Restrictive and permits and on and on. What groups control that? Who’s putting all these regulations on? The State. The State. Mine Land Reclamation, then it gets into the County and so… Are these safety-related, are these environmental, is it – what? All of the above and then some. As a miner, what does that create for you? How does change what it used to be? How that it affects me is as soon as you - and this has happened to me in the past – “I have silver mines on Mt. Lincoln that I’d like to interest somebody else because I’m too old to mine.” “Where are they at?” “ “No thanks.” They don’t even want to look. They think the rules and regulations and all the Mickey Mouse - - and the other thing that’s really hurt is this one really - - me and some people were going to do a bunch of work and when the larger mining companies and so it finally ended their jobs just were here and they found some nice small - you understand - but gold diggings and they got the - - one of the chief muckety-mucks here to take a look at it. He goes up and takes a look; he takes a look at all the involvement there in Placer Valley, writes it down… That was my next question – how has that changed it? And he says, “No, we don’t want to mine for gold. The hell with it. We’ll go mine someplace else.” So just by virtue of all the people moving in? Definitely a factor. Okay, why? Why? I can guess, but I want it from you. I mean how does it affect? How does it affect the mining, the fact that we have this huge population ump and all these people coming in? They don’t want to put up with all these hearings and this Mickey Mouse that hey have to go through before they could ever get a permit to mine anywhere! somebody says they want to mine someplace and of a sudden you throw a whole barn-full of people wanting to object: “I don’t want trucks, I don’t want noise, I don’t want dust, I don’t want light – I don’t want anything else!” And that’s what’s mining. See, this is where Colorado really needs to take a long hard look at California. Have you seen some of these in California? Mm-hmm. (negative) To me, where Colorado is really good is they did not identify the mineral resource areas. In other words, they should have identified the mineral resource areas, recognized what they’ve done in California. The residential development and mining are not too compatible things. So before they let all these folks build all over up here… Then say, “We’ll take the minerals first, then we claim the land. (inaudible) builders.” That’s their philosophy. It makes a lot more sense because now, there’s so many places in Colorado where it has good mineral and in some point in time, we may need these minerals, okay? Okay. I think that’s something I’ve learned here that I never stopped to think about. You know, you can build almost anywhere, but you only mine where there’s minerals and minerals are in such huge places that they really should identify them; not only the State but also the County. The Federal government, the State and the - - they should all say, “Well, what have we got where?” and then I’d say at some pointing time, although economics say that you can’t mine silver at $4.50 or whatever, at some point in the future when it’s $50, they will be wanting to mine. Mm-hmm (affirmative) and I don’t think we stop to think about it. Although we can’t mine it, maybe our kids or our kid’s kids or future generations someplace can mine. Because we’re certainly using all those minerals; we just don’t think about where we get them from. We don’t realize. People don’t - - Just like agriculture. Now you see some places, see like Lake County over on the other side, where they have their mineral resource areas and they’ve identified it. Oh, they have! You don’t build a house there that’s --- Really! Yes, yes. Did you ever look at it? Why did they have the forethought? No, what was different in Lake County than Park County? I guess that they had commissioners and people who’s got a little bit of brains. What else can you say? (Laughter) You asked! Okay. Is there anything you want to add? Somebody needs to do it. You want to see? I’ll show you… What are you showing me? (inaudible). He’s pulled out a book of Lake County land uses. We were looking at the book from Lake County and they have specifically identified mineralized areas with circles around them, so I’m assuming that then they don’t let people build on those. That’s right! Do they have some specific plan to bring that land back and then to build? Do you they have a map that kind of plan for that? Not to my knowledge… see the “family dwelling.” Industrial mining, “P” for “Use Prohibited.” See, you can’t build in “Industrial Mining.” Okay, we’re looking at a table and so it spells out exactly where you can have a hotel, a family dwelling, a bar, vs. where you can have mining. Is that correct, in Lake County? Yes. When did all these restrictions start coming in here? Was this recent or are we going way back, but slowly they kept increasing? I think it’s been building up over time, really. Is there anything you want to add and something your grandkids should know about what it was like to mine when their going to miss out on that? A lot of hard work! Mucking rock is not easy; it’s - - of course now with the tools and equipment that they have, it’s not like we used to do it … and when we used to single-jack holes then, that was something else. Single-jack hammer and drills, too. Hammer? Just … almost like a pick and hammer. Oh yeah, yeah. Single-jacking hammer and drill steel and a pair of ?scroops? to take the rock shavings out and put it in a 30 inch hole. That takes a lot of work, beating on rock for a long time. Hard rock. Very patient. Thanks for meeting with me today and if you think of more things, we can add them on later. I really appreciate your time. You’re welcome! End of tape |