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Dave
Neukirch August 5, 2002
Side A This is Cara Doyle. I’m here with Dave Neukirch. Today is August 5, 2002 (Opening introduction on tape is not audible). So your family relatives lived here for was it a long period of tim Oh yeah. How many years? My great-grandfather homesteaded here, so it would be around the turn of the century. Great-grandfather, do you remember his name? John Conrad Miller and he homesteaded in a number of places around. Could you name any? Would there be family names, or… No, no specific - - just places. I mean, that’s all it would be would be a place that he would be here or he would be there; he finally ended up with staying here in one spot. And was it this particular ranch? It was in this - - this was one of the places that he decided to just stay at, yeah. How did he end up here? Gee! Settlers … Do you know where he came from? I’m not sure where the Millers came from. They were from Germany and half of his language when he would write his journals – his day journals – would be - - he would mix English and German together because he was spelling the English worked out. He thought they sounded how they should be spelled. Half the words are in German and unfortunately, we lost that in the fire, so we don’t have the daybooks anymore, but he left his mark on some trees up here around the turn of the century. Did he come out in like the traditional wagon train or (inaudible) I think Grandma said he was - - yeah, he did, pretty much the traditional wagon train. A lot of the other settlers, too. Did he come with family? You know, I don’t know much about how many Millers actually were because there were because there were several different family members around here; Davis’s and Millers and they were kind of related and they homesteaded in different places. Do you know at the time was he married? Was he very young? I have no idea. Maybe I’ve heard and just don’t remember. That could be. Okay, that’s alright. Tell me what happened from there. He homesteaded, was he very successful? I assume since he’s still here. Grandma said he used to sell beef to the miners in Leadville. He butchered quite a few of his beefs here. Was there a particular type of cattle he favored? You know, I think they basically had black cattle and I don’t think there’s anything in particular, but I know he made the trip over Weston Pass with beef that he butchered here and he would - - everything was saved. Every by-product they used everything here. He would boil the hooves to make neatsfoot oil to oil the harness and he had pretty a good trade I guess. I don’t know much about him when he passed away or too much about it except that Grandma didn't talk much about her dad. Do you know beyond the cattle, were there other crops or other animals that they had on the farm? Well, they had cow and horses; that’s mostly what they would have had there, there wouldn’t’ have been anything else. There was no grazing of any live - - no crops, except for native hay and the Grandmother’s mother, which would be Edna Miller, would have been his wife, and I think that she probably lived a lot longer than him because I’ve seen pictures and Edna’s name was on a lot different (inaudible). Did your mom talk at all about stories of what life was like for her? My grandmother you mean. Mm-hmm (affirmative). No, you know, she didn’t’ really, because they just - - it was just a matter of everyday things. They did what had to be done and it’s not like today with electricity and things. I’m wondering in terms of feeding the family how difficult it was? IF they went to town often for sales or where they might sell to, or… They basically raised almost everything they needed. They did - - I know they certainly went to town occasionally, but when you’re fairly independent and self-sufficient, you don’t need to go too many places. And it was always a big deal if they went someplace by motor car I’m sure because some of the other relatives, everything was in postcards. That’s all of their correspondence everywhere they went it was always in photographs or made into postcards. And lots and lots of them were done, even though they didn’t go very often, that’s still basically all they had. So then your grandmother, would she be the first one that you were connected to that lived here? Oh yeah, my dad’s mom, yeah. Certainly, yes. I wouldn’t have known both my grandmother and grandfather in my kid’s mind, that’s the first ones that I would have known. Okay. Now you were raised out in California. Yeah. How often did you come out here? Maybe once every five years, we weren’t here very often. I came here before the last year in high school and spent the summer. What made you do that? Did they need the help or did you want the adventure? Oh no, it was just kid’s stuff – having fun, yeah. What did you do that summer? Oh, we built fence. We built fence and we had fun. There were some other people here from Colorado Springs and we just hung around and rode horses and did whatever we wanted all summer. Do you recall their stories at that point of earlier years? Probably not. I mean, it just - - I had been here a number of years after that and so I would hear stories occasionally from time to time. So you came out for that one summer, then what happened after that? I finished the last year in high school and then came here, thinking I’ll try it for a year and see if it will work out for a year. Had they asked you to come out to help or were you just fascinated by ranching life? No, I think I volunteered more than being asked and all that was left here was my grandparents and my aunt and it was like - - probably they appreciated the “slave labor” (laughter) it was willing given but it was - - somebody had to work you know, as well. Did you know anything about ranching? Well, I was here the summer before. And that’s funny. I’m assuming California you weren’t involved in this kind of work. No, I didn’t’ study English and music to come here to work on the ranch. Is that what you studied? Yeah, so it’s kind of a “learn by doing” thing and I’m a quick study and not that people gave me things and that I got them easily that way, but I can learn things easily so it worked out. So you came out for that year. Been here most of the time since. It’s been almost 29 years. (Laughter ) He’s scratching the table. So, you probably can’t even… So how many years – 29 years? Twenty-nine years, yeah. Tell me the story of how that came to be. Didn’t I just say that? (laughter) I’m saying you skipped a big part. No I didn’t! Well, how that came to be… your grandparents had the ranch, and you lived in California; you came out, came out for a year, helped on the ranch; how did you come to stay here permanently and take over the ranch? DN How did I come to stay here – I came and I did stay permanently. Okay. That’s all. And how long were your grandparents here with you? My granddad passed away in ’78, ’79, something like that and then they hadn’t been living here anyway. They had a house in Buena Vista and so they would go back and forth and basically my aunt and I were here and they were there most nights. The altitude was better for his health. They got road trips! They didn't have to be around. They could go driving around and… So you’d see handling all the ranching functions. Yeah, oh yeah. What’s your aunt’s name? Violet Wisdom. Violet Wisdom? Wisdom, yes. What a cool name. Yeah, there’s hardly any Wisdom’s left. Her family, her in-laws were down around the (inaudible). Their ranch is underneath the water now, but she … Did she tell you that story at all? Yeah, oh yeah and they basically my aunt and I for most of the time and my grandparents, like I say, they were back and forth; They didn’t involve themselves with anything except for the money part and some decisions usually. The day-to-day stuff we took care of. Did the ranch change over that time in terms of what you raised or what you grew or its size? Size-wise, we downsized animal numbers since then, but size-wise it’s only changed because of the climate changing. Less hay could be raised because there’s less water. People keep saying the climate isn’t changing now tell me what you’re saying. Well, from what I’d heard previously before I got here, it had already changed a bunch. In what ways? In the 30s and 40s, the climate was so much wetter, not just in this part of Park County but in most of Park County. They dryland some crops here even because there was enough moisture but it already dried up before I got here. The climate had changed. That’s interesting. I’ve always heard that it was really when all the ranchers sold off all these water rights that all of a sudden, things couldn’t’ be grown but you’re really saying that it’s a natural thing for years and years were part of it, too. Oh no, no, no. The climate has changed because man has (inaudible) the change because of all the water being sold, that I would agree with, because there’s less water on the ground to condense into clouds to make more moisture. Oh. So in a way, the climate has changed, but in a way it’s because it’s a manmade climatic change. Oh, I’ve never heard of it. Okay, that makes sense. And it’s not just me that says that. It’ll be other people that say the same thing and not just because of here, but because west of us is the same thing. Other places that don’t sell their water, it’s the same thing and the land will dry up and it does make a lot of changes and that in turn, changes the way the grasses and the feed grows, which changes the animals that are eating it. Sometimes not just cattle, but the horses and everything else they develop different health problems because of the type of feed they have to eat because of the conditions that have to graze in the grass or feed (inaudible). So it’s a snowball effect. Interesting. You said that the 30s and 40s were … That’s what I was told, I think it was in the 30s and 40s. It was after the Dust Bowl but that’s when everything was really wet and I’d heard stories of the crops that were raised down around the Tarryall. They were able to do some real farming down there. I’ve heard there was like cash crops and all kinds of (inaudible). yeah, there was barley - - there was some barley raised here. Grandmother said her dad had a big tall building that he put the barley straw in and they’d use that for their chickens all winter. And now you couldn’t consider doing something like that. There’s no moisture! You can’t even grass this year, let alone crops. But yeah, there was places where other ditches that I wondered about and they said, “Yeah, the reason those ditches are there is because there was a lot more water at one time,” And those ditches ran water. They raised a crop of hay there and you barely can make ditches out now. Yeah, the climate has definitely changed. It doesn’t help filling wells and drying up the land. That’s a whole separate story. It’s a whole ‘nother issue! Okay, we don’t have to go there right now. That’s a political issue, yeah. I said that you came kind of about it a different way. You seem to think it’s a natural way, but what did your folks do in California? What most city people do; they had their jobs and they raised kids and they had the jobs and they raised kids and …yeah, that’s all. What was your dad? He was aerospace engineer, he worked for NW and Rockwell and worked on the Apollo and that kind of stuff and no, I never wanted to be an astronaut. Was this a dream of yours or it just came about? I was going to try it for a year and see if it would work out for me and if I could pick things up and be able to do them and not have to - - I never was homesick in my life, so I never had a problem with it. And even then you were thinking that this might be the life for you. Oh! Yeah. There wasn’t much not to like. That’s true. But then, I have two sisters and a brother that didn't think much of it. Anyway, not enough to have to want to come out here. Is anyone else in the family ranching yet? No, no there’s hardly any of the family left to ranch, so… And then we didn’t mention you inherited the ranch then from your grandparents? Actually, my grandfather died and my grandmother had deeded the ranch to both my aunt and myself before she died. This is your Aunt Violet? My Aunt Violet, and so we were equal partners in it when my grandmother passed away and so then when my aunt passed away, then I was the equal partner and so yeah, I inherited it that way for better or for worse, I guess. From a city kid’s perspective from coming out here that first year to now, how have you changed? Oh, well I still haven’t grown up, so (laughter) it’s still a growing – still a work in progress I guess. I probably - - in hindsight, my life there was only the first eighteen years of my life, so pretty much a child-like view of things, even though an eighteen year-old would argue about (inaudible) child, their a world apart. Completely and totally and here, it’s learning to do things every day because you have to. There, it would just be a normal everyday things that would - - you wouldn’t think to do, you have to do anything, but here …I’ve changed quite a bit. Specifics – almost everything. As a seasoned rancher looking back, how has the ranching changed? Seasoned! I think twenty-nine years, you could say “seasoned!” You could argue with that. (laughter). I’m still growing! How would you say the ranching has changed because you must have seen I would say, this has been a pretty huge… Dramatic changes in even the last twenty years with development and growth. Can you give us a sense of from when you first came what ranching was and the kind of people who were around, to what it is now? This county, this whole area, was agriculture-based. The cattle, the horses, the people; the hay was raised. Now, it’s - - the biggest change is people and tourism and it’s not a lot of ranching done anymore. Where do you see it headed? Hmm. Well, there can only be so much growth anyway…it depends on the perspective. Some would say it’s a good thing, some not. I’m not against growth, but it’s a sad thing to see the end of ranching, too. And you don’t see it continue, say it’s pretty much done. There’s no room for the public to allow it anymore with the number of people that are around. They want to go and buy a steak but they don’t want the (inaudible). What about the – I don’t know if this is touchy or not – Forest Service? I’m thick-skinned. Oh, I don’t have a problem with the Forest Service. I quit using them a long time ago! (laughter). Can you give me a sense of what their role has been in term of …? That used to be a fairly integral part of ranching if I understand the land use correctly here. It did. The grazing in the summertime was a fairly good - - when I came here, we would go (inaudible) on the forest every summer. And when you say “Go up on it,” you weren’t just hiking. Go up and take cattle up. You were … Take cattle up with horses to graze summer grass because the cattle and the grass Because when we say “go up to the mountain,” now, we mean we’re going hiking. Oh no, this is twelve or fourteen miles one way from here and so the cattle can eat those succulent high-altitude grasses and the calves can grow big and come back in the fall and be weaned off and sold. And how critical was that for successful ranch at that time? Very critical because that pasture allowed the home pastures to rest and grow and generally, it wasn’t very expensive. And now with competition, the Forest Service and some of the other public agencies… Now would that be BLM land also? They’re separate. Was BLM land used for those same reasons or was that a different arrangement? Oh certainly, oh no, (inaudible) allowed for BLM land to be used the same way. It was run separate from the Forest Service and I still use BLM in the same way; still pay a lease every year to use the grass. The Forest Service just kept changing their priorities from livestock to wildlife because there’s more dollars in wildlife. What do you mean by that? They earn more income from wildlife than they do from livestock and so it was to their betterment to keep those grasses and things for the elk and the deer because they had more income from them. Now you’re talking hunting licenses or where is that income? Oh yes, oh yeah, hunting licenses, yes. There’s no other land use licenses but because the numbers keep increasing, you have to have less livestock because there’s only so much grass no matter what, so they kept restricting or they did restrict the number of days you could be up there and the types of places you could have them and raised the rates and we finally just had to stop using Forest Service. Do you remember when that was? Maybe ten years ago. Okay. I know I was the one that said, “That’s all.” I went a few years with non-use and paid for non-use and they said, “Are you ever going to go back again?” And I said, “No.” It was - - the forest was used extensively not just for cattle but for huge herds of sheep, too and they would go up actually alter in the year and go way above timberline, but it was the same … Were those sheep from right here? Were they South Park? They brought them in? No, oh no, they were imported by truckloads. Oh really! And it finally got - - there’s still parts of sheep camps up pretty high, but it finally got to the same thing for them. Trucking and those costs were so high, that the short time of the year that they’re up there and it is a short growing season. Short enough down at this altitude let alone above timberline. Then finally no more. These allotments like this allotment, is twelve miles C & H. What does that mean, C & H? I’m getting there. Okay, I’m sorry, I want to make sure… The other allotments all had C&H on them you know, cattle and horses because there were horses run up here, too but then they just put that entire (inaudible) so it was cattle and sheep and horses, that’s what was allowed and they have gradually just kind of pushed everybody out. Is that a particular person or president or anything that you could name? No, no, no. No, it’s just policies change and policies and politics and if there’s more money to be made in wildlife than there is in livestock they have to do it. Now BLM’s a whole different story; I still pay BLM leases, they’re still relatively inexpensive; you can use them as long as you don’t totally destroy the grass and use them year ‘round. There isn’t a question up here because it doesn’t grow year ‘round, but I buy good terms with the Bureau of Land Management and the State Land Board too. I lease their land, too. State Land Board? Yeah. And they have land available up here? State Land Board has land available all over the state. The school sections on every township; there’s two School Sections and they were originally set up the same two sections in each township. The revenues deal with the schools in that county I think. Is that still how it works? Oh, they’re still called School Sections, yeah. I think Section 16 and 36 of each township - the first piece of land just across our fence is a School Section and they lease that out for pasture; they have in the past. Some school sections were sold off, some are still run the same way and are leased. The top of this mountain is actually State land, I don’t own it. I pay a lease on it, but I don’t really use it much; it’s straight up and down. You keep that as an option just in case or what…? No, I just keep it because it just makes one more hoop for them to jump to if they decide to sell it then. They asked me a few years ago if I would think that it could be into stewardship with some of these other State land eases that have gone into stewardship and it gives the State a little bit more money and I had no problem; I just (inaudible) those two half-sections that I lease were listed with a couple of other pieces and it just changes a little so they cant’ sell it outright. Takes them a little longer to sell it, a little more red tape. Are they likely to do that? I mean, to sell it? You means in terms for development? Who knows! I mean, BLM land’s the same way. If BLM decided that we’re not really making much money for example, the lands that I lease are probably a thousand acres, a little more than a thousand acres. Okay now what would that … And I pay a certain amount per animal unit a month on that land, which is one animal for one month and I pay at a rate of - - a certain rate for each one of those. Can you tell me what the rate is, or is that like a private kind of thing between ranchers? No no, I pay for 144 animal units a month and I end up paying about $250 some dollars a year. I’m just wondering in perspective of 2002, what that ends up in terms of costs? That’s exactly what I pay right now, so it’s pretty cheap. How is that compared to twenty years ago? The rate wasn’t much cheaper then it’s BLM land is relatively cheap, but then across the state, it isn’t the same in each piece. Some lands are more productive. The same thing with the Board of Land Commissioners land, state land. Different prices in different places. Okay. And while I don’t sub-lease to other people the pasture, if I did, I would be charged a different fee than if it’s my own animals. The leases since they’ve been in name, basically they haven’t gone up hardly at all. They’ve stayed about the same – stay about the same out of the year, so it makes it affordable for a person to raise cattle. I’m taking a peak at the tape because I’m going to ask you next about water and I wanted to make sure - - that could be several tapes by itself also! Uh –oh! How has the water changed? We mentioned the climate but in terms of selling off the water rights and water here on your ranch? Our water wasn’t sold, but our water is way to changed to have done any good. Our water rights are not old enough to make a difference. If per chance we had a wet summer and I was allowed to use the water - - when I came here we used to raise about 2,000 bales of hay in this field and now I raise nothing. We used to be able to keep the water on the whole summer and now, if I’m lucky I can keep it on for three or four days and they tell me to shut it off. And I have to get a (inaudible) miles. Now this is a particularly bad year. Everywhere. CD We have to mention that this is a horrible drought year but even just the last few years, that’s been true? Yeah, certainly. The water rights just aren’t old enough to do any good. And by that, do you mean that other people are pulling before you can when you say “old”? When Denver, Aurora, Thornton, Broom field – all the suburban communities bought up the water on the neighboring ranches, they bought up older water rights into the 1870s, 1880s, which means they get to take the water from those years They get first dibs basically. To the reservoir for their storage and nobody else get the water. Okay. And unless you have extremely older water rights, you can’t use the water and it’s not just this county, it’s other counties, too. It’s the good and the bad about water laws. You know, it keeps everybody from just taking everything and leaving it in one spot and having nothing in the creek; bare bottom but on the other hand, ag. use has just you know, shoved up off the side and the ranches that the water was sold off of, they basically just becomes sub-developments. Do you remember when that happened? I don’t know time-wise when - - I’m not remembering when that was, the big sell-off. It was not too long after I got here, it was right in about the mid-seventies. Do you remember what your grandparents thought of that? Because that must have been a strange deal to them. You know, I don’t know if I ever heard them talking about it. I mean, it was - -I’m sure these neighboring ranches, when they sold, it was like some of fields got irrigated because they had their water on. It wasn’t because our water right - it was because they used the water, too and things are flood-irrigated. I think they were kind of not involved too much in the ranch by that time. Do you remember just in the area, seeing how that changed at that point when the started selling it off? Yeah, there was no longer any cows and calves that got kept over for the - - as ownership every year, they were just pasture cattle that would come in for the summer because there was no water raising hay, people didn’t have to live here, put the hay and keep cattle over the winter. All they could do was just bring pasture cattle from out East and pasture for the summer and be gone again. And so did you get a different population moving in? Is that when that kind of transition began? It was kind of the start of it because then all of a sudden, they realized after a few years that the ranch doesn’t make much money doing that but it does make a lot more money than houses. That definitely could bring change. Can you give any guess on percentage of what was ranched when you came and what is ranched now? I mean, in this area around you. Well, since there’s only a couple of ranches that are actually ranches now, and everything else that was a ranch isn’t , it’s probably 75 or 80% of any ranchland that was available is now a development… at least. This Warm Springs up here is a good example with so many houses, there were no houses there – at all. There was no electricity there - at all, it was just a ranch. Most (inaudible) around here just weren’t there. There across the highway from us, where now there’s thirty houses, there is one. And what was that house all about. What was that house all about. I’m not old enough to know that. (laughter). What are the rumors! The rumors that that house was used by a good many people on their way by and if had electricity, it would have had a red light. It was a local “house.” And the house is still there! Was it a bar or restaurant or anything or it was just a home to stop by? I know, I don’t think so. Oh yeah, it was just a place for people to stop by and enjoy each other’s company (laughter). Okay, we’ll ask some of the older guys about that too and see if I can get a straight answer. (Laughter) (inaudible) would definitely know that that answer, yeah. It’s amazing – everybody’s so (inaudible) remember. It is the Nelson place. Well, amazing, yeah! End Side A Start Side B On that note, we’ll leave the red light house alone. Do you remember any old ranchers? Were there any one who were around when you got here that were kind of legends of their time or particularly well-known? Not that can think of any. My family before I was here, dealt with people up around Jefferson so they would mention them you know, but it wasn’t - - if anybody I met, it was like just before they died. So really, it didn't have … Was there anyone who taught you the ranching business in the area or was it basically just your grandparents and hard lessons? Itwas basically - - yeah, school of hard knocks and my aunt and learned by doing. Had your aunt lived up here for a long time? She was raised here, she was here all her life. And what was her name -Violet Wisdom. Do you remember anything about her family or where she went to school? Oh yeah, she went to school in Fairplay I think actually because there were several of the schools. There was Buffalo Springs school down here (pointing). Down here – where are you pointing? DIt’s south of us, south of us. Pretty close? A few miles. Buffalo Springs? Yeah, there was a couple of different schools around; in fact, there was one in on the County Road west of us here that an uncle – my grandmother’s brother – he used to drive the kids in an old panel truck; that was the school bus. Even in the winter, he went around the north end of the mountain and across there to take the kids to school Yeah, my aunt finished high school in Fairplay and she never drove a car; she steered a tractor around once and awhile but she never drove a car. The only time… Had she been raised on the ranch also? Yeah, the only time she actually drove a car, she had to drive to her own graduation because no one would take her. Why? I guess they were busy. She actually did drive – at least that’s what I heard. She actually did drive to her own graduation and it was like two or three in the graduating class. Big school. I don’t know - my dad (sic) he went to school, too but he missed a lot of school. I’ve seen old report cards of his and you know, ranch chores means you don’t go to school. Now they don’t allow that. So did he go to Fairplay also? You know, I think he was at Fairplay but I think he was also at Buffalo Springs and they had another school, which is the purpose of the School Sections also was they were allotted so that you could put a school on them We’re talking, were these like the one-room little school houses you hear about? Oh certainly. That’s you know the School Sections in the State when they were set up by the State Land Board, they were allowed that a school could be on them and this one (inaudible) here, the first place here, it had a school on it and then the next one down had a school on it. Are any of those buildings left? No. If you looked up here; if we can find where a building had been, but that’s about all. The other one that I spoke of west of us, the neighbor that has that ranch, there are still some old - - there’s an old building left there that because that was an old ranch, it had been used as a school house and is still there, but he just uses it to graze livestock. He had huge logs – huge logs that were hewn there and when I was there not too many years ago, there was a real old lady that came by in a car and she wanted to go in there because she’d gone to school there. Oh! And I’m not sure if she hadn’t been related to one of the people that owned the ranch where that school’s located. I don’t suppose anybody got her name. Well, I know it was one of the Radford’s (inaudible) because it’s the Radford place is the name of the ranch was the Radford, but it’s just part of the subdivision now. I don’t know what her actual first name was but I know she had stopped in there because she’d gone to school and lived there. Not much left of anything anymore. What about here on this ranch? Now I know you’ve had some fire problems; tell me about the first fire. That was the one that took the house, wasn’t it? Yeah, in the middle of winter. And was that the homestead house? Was that the original home? Actually, that would have been the second house in the same place that burned down. Oh no! But it had been there… well, when it burned down, I think it had been there sixty or seventy years or eight. And were you living here at that time? Yeah, oh yeah. It was a very cold, cold night in the middle of winter, yeah. It was not nice to have that … hot fire. Can you tell me the story, or is it too hard? Oh no, a fire is a fire. IT wasn’t good. So you were all sleeping? My aunt was still awake and she yelled - - I was sleeping upstairs; she yelled you know, and smoke’s already come up the stairs. She ran out through the kitchen and the stuff dripping off the ceiling already. The fire was dripping. It was basically a two-story log house, good-sized house and with pressed board and wallpaper, so it started dripping off the ceiling. I went out the window and lost a slipper which was all I could put on just like - - I had more than slippers on, but I had slippers on my feet and was actually waiting around bare-foot and had to go around the north side of the house. My grandmother had been confined to a wheelchair for a couple of years basically and we hefted her in and out of places and one of these instances when there’s no cushion left in your knees and you can’t do anything. I broke the window, hoping it wouldn’t - - it was already smoked; the whole room was smoke and had to make two tries to get her out and she was gurgling sick. Oh! And we still saved this one building next to the house and she was taken - - she never came back here after that. She stayed with some friends in Colorado - - she was in the hospital for a little bit and then stayed with friends in Colorado Springs until she died and my aunt made it – was able to make a couple of trips to Colorado Springs and stay with her in the summers while my wife and I were here, so it worked out better for her, she got a little more vacation, too because she hadn’t been away from here very much. And I know that feeling! Your wife’s name is Carol. Yeah. And we kind of skipped on when did you meet – was Carol from here? No she actually from Ft. Collins and her parents are farmers up there and raise - - and did raise pig and they raised barely and wheat and alfalfa and stuff. So she knows what it’s like to be on a ranch. We’re not really - - a farm is different than a ranch. She’s a hard worker. She works extremely hard at whatever she does. How long have you been married? Since ’88. Okay. Same year as the fire actually. I was going to say, okay, ‘cause that’s not very long ago. No, fourteen years. It seems like a long time. Oh, now be careful! Carol’s not here. (Laughter) That’s why I could say that! That will get you in trouble. It’s like a lot longer! (laughter). You were married and then you had that fire the same year. Yeah, the fire was in January and we were married in July that same year so yeah, it was kind of not nice and this trailer up here (gesturing) contained the three of us for awhile, my aunt, and my wife and I. That’d be cozy for a new marriage. Well, it wasn’t bad except they had a mutual hate society so I was sort of stuck in between most of the time. Oh boy. And I stayed outdoors a lot because it was a lot warmer outside than it was in there! (laughter). They had agreed basically to not get along and they both put on shows and they both treated each other not too good friends. You know, it just - - I was ready to walk - - I was ready to say, “Okay, here you go Aunt, it’s yours.” It would have been easier to just the both of us leave than to have to fight the situation when somebody’s (inaudible) can disappear if you have to constantly live with it all the time and I wasn’t going to let that happen to myself. But things worked out a little bit better. And then your aunt passed away when? She passed away in ’95 and just after some - - she’d had some health problems and she never smoked a day in her life, but had emphysema and heart as well. In fact, she told the doctor in Salida that she was taking medication for both and she said, “If I knew which ones were the heart pills I wouldn’t take them, I’d rather die of a attack than this damn emphysema.” Actually her heart kind of did give out but still weren’t sure if it was medication sort of assisted in that or not. Now you had another fire this year. Yeah. Tell me about that. It was not nice! It was We are in this horrible drought and things are incredibly dry. Extremely dry. It was in April. Normally we have some snow on the ground. Oh sure. We had no snow on the ground, just grass tow-foot tall from last fall. Everything dry and it was perfectly calm when I started welding and a gust of wind just (gesture with hands)! And it was more than a gust, it just screamed and in ten seconds, you can’t believe how fast it went in ten seconds. Yes. Lost a couple of buildings, tools and supplies. You saved the house. Yeah, saved the house, saved the big barns and things, but tools and supplies matter quite a bit. I have a friend that would offer a drill; “This is good; that means I have a bit.” Well, I don’t have a bit to put in the drill because that was part of tools and supplies and if I had a drill bit, then I could drill a hole. That would mean I’d have to have a bolt to put in that hole. Well, I don’t have those … Things that you take for granted on a ranch, I mean, that are just always around. I have hammers, but I don’t have a nail and if I had a nail, that would mean I have a board, but the lumber piles went, too. And if I had a board, that would mean I’d have a saw to saw that board or paint to paint that board after I nailed enough with the nails that I didn’t have. In a really incredibly tough agricultural year anyway… Yeah. Are you managing? I’m managing because of other things I’m doing outside from the ranch. Normally, I don’t take… You didn't lose cattle, you didn’t lose… We didn’t lose cattle, we didn’t lose horse. I’m not one of the people that sold all my cattle because I don’t know where I’m going to come up with hay. Millions of cattle have been sold in this state because of that this year. I bet. Where are you able to obtain hay? I haven’t obtained all my hay yet, but I have no doubt that there will be hay enough for cows ‘cause people raise hay that isn’t good enough for horses. I usually end up with cow hay, but I have probably ?more? horses than I do cows, so I still have to find good hay. But I’m not as worried as I could have been because of different things that are going on. In the past, my relatives – my aunt, my grandparents – the ranch was a lot larger and when times got tough, when they had way too many cows, they sold cows. When that still didn’t work, they sold land and … So how many acres do you have now? Well, now as of earlier this year, there is 2,549 acres and I sold, sort of, 110 acres to somebody that was isolated. It had BLM on all four sides of it so because of that, it came with some baggage and I really didn't sell - - I mean, I am selling it; he is paying me on it instead, but we’ve worked out a relatively good deal for myself and I sold it to him at a good price. He’s a real close friend. Can you tell me about the Conservation Trust because I think that’s kind of an indication of the era we’re in right now. When I first started with the Nature Conservancy three years ago, they want to preserve their fin and their fen is… Which is across the road. Is downstream from here, as well as my neighbor to the north and the idea was the underground sources of water need to be protected to keep the fen alive. Then fen had in previous years had people that bought it and put a drag line in and dredged a ditch across here and hauled peat 365 days a year. Okay. Before Conservancy came in and said, “Oh, there’s this little plant that doesn’t grow anywhere else in the state! And, “Oh, here’s this other little one. We can really afford to spend this money on this.” So… How facetious are you being? Was this pretty stupid, too? Did you think it should have been kept? No, no I had all kinds of really bad feelings because I’d read all I knew. I knew a lot about the Conservancy and their reputation was not good. They went into the Midwest and took a lot of land out of production for the better good of people to bring things back to nature. It was raising a lot of things that couldn’t be raised anymore, so I kind of knew that. But they’re policies have changed, but for me, they’ve helped me out. They’ve taken over this land, they bought the lots back that were sold because there was two (inaudible) ago that did this open-strip mining what they didn’t have permission to do and then the next ones came were selling lots. Then the Conservancy bought it and they bought those lots back and they’ve reclaimed those ditches and raised the water table and created a buffer between my pasture and the next pasture; created a good buffer and offered me - -hey were actually going to offer me money for my development right. And I decided to try to make it through (inaudible) through BLM and that’s changed the development right. So it’s been a good thing for me and I can sleep at night. How do you see this benefiting ranching or land, agriculture; what would say the long-term (inaudible) ? In thirty years when people go by and say there’s some open land without a bunch of houses on it, that’s a benefit. It doesn’t have to necessarily stay ranching, but it will be not developed on. So it will have to be one piece. It will stay basically, the bulk of it will stay… No, it could even sell off several pieces, but it would never be developed on. Just because you put in a development right, you’re selling the development right, you’re not selling the property and it binds it forever until the Government and says, “That’s the end of forever.” And that can happen. And that is an argument that people use these days. It could happen, but you can’t say - - nobody has that perfect futures’ eye, hindsight the only thing that’s perfect and you can’t say if this will happen. Of course it’s happened. We put policy into something and took it away so you know, the same time of thing. And now you’re the third rancher I’ve talked to in the last week or so who’s doing this kind of thing. Can you give me any sense from the rancher’s point of view in 2002 - see any changes in the South Park. Is it the open space? Why do this now? Yeah, what’s the push right now. Because you can’t make money ranching and at least you get paid to ranch. In some places, a considerable amount of money. IF this ranch is worth $2,000 an acre as development right, it’s highest and best use for sub-development and it’s only worth $200 an acre as ag. land and they figure some kind of a future in between is what you get paid for that development right. And for a lot of people, they do it for the next generation because it can come off the taxes, it’s pretty good tax incentive for doing it, but if there’s no other generation to come along, the benefit is to take the money and at least you can live out your life knowing that you were paid to stay there. And you can still earn a living from the livestock or from the land, as well as having that money, well then that just pays you to keep… Okay. I don’t have anybody to inherit, so I’m doing it for my conscience and for the next people that are going to be around. We’re just here for this tiny dot of time and it’s kind of short-sighted to say, “ Oh yeah. I own the land.” I don’t own the land. I pay taxes every year to stay here. Who’s to say what’s going to happen in one year or two years or in ten, but at least you can kind of rid yourself of some this little - - you know, mix-up that everybody else wants to do. Sell the land; be gone; what are you going to do? What changes have you seen in Fairplay since you’ve been here? More people, more building. I go into Fairplay as little I can. Really? Would you say attitudes have changed? Is it different kind of people is it… Well, attitudes have changed because of the people that are living in Fairplay; a lot of them are working in Breckenridge and it’s a different attitude from over the hill. Because everything has swung away from ag. and more toward tourism, that small-town attitude probably I guess is gone a little bit. But it had already started like that when I got here. When I got here, the post Office was pretty dinky little thing, too. Yeah. And now it’s pretty good-sized Post office, so lot more people; a lot more people and I don’t know where they all come from, but I don’t think they (inaudible) very well. Okay, anything I haven’t asked you that you think is important for people to understand about living here, the history here. Oh gee, yeah, but they’re all gone. I don’t know, they …I guess there’s been so very few places that are open and even the ones that you see, like even the 35 acres. Now that was the story I told, okay? that’s not lot of open space, but it’s better than no open space. Mm-hmm. I was chatting with someone online from Sweden and he could not understand how come things till had to be done with horses and … Now there’s a good example of then and now, chatting online with a guy from Sweden. yeah, there’s room for the computer yet, you know. You can still combine the past with the present and some with the future. You have to. So what were you telling him about the horses? Oh, he just – he finally was very condescending to me about it, but you know that I would still have to do things like that and sometimes there’s no other way around. Like? Like you still have to move cattle with horses, although some just move them with four-wheelers, you still have to do things with horses and it’s still - - now although it’s hobby-horses around instead of use for ag. use but because of that, there’s still a demand for horse-type things. “Ah, I can make from it.” Yeah. (inaudible) What would you tell a kid wanting to go into agriculture at this point? Lots of luck! It ain’t going to happen. There’s not much ag. - - well, not in this part of the state, not in this part of the country. They might even have to go to Canada or to places where there’s more open space. There’s less and less of it available. I can’t imagine there’s not too many kids that actually want to. And that kids that were raised here, all they want to do is get away, so and that’s across the board. But, I don’t - - gee. I’m glad I’m not having to make that decision myself. It’s bad enough for me and I’ve been here thirty years – I’ll probably die here, I don’t know, who knows? What does your operation consist of now? How many cattle? A couple of dozen cows is all we’re down to. That’s it. Yeah, we had to cut back some with the estate problems, we had real estate problems. For some of the cattle that have certain brands on them. I really couldn’t just (inaudible) and then tell them they want mine. What’s the family brand? There’s more than one. Okay. My Grandmother’s name was Mary Bessie and so she had an M Bar Slash and that was basically on most of the cows and my aunt had a brand that was an H with a Bar and upside-down T that had been my dad’s brand at one time. Not that he had a large amount of cattle; he just was here. I have a brand of my own that I gained that belonged to another relative on a county road not too far from here. She was an aunt that died intestate and the place basically went to development, so we actually have several brands. More brands than we got cows almost! And then how many acres do you actually have crops on? Crops? Anything? Oh sorry, I’m a Midwestern girl, I still go with that. There’s no crops. Do you have any hay that you raise? No, basically, no anymore. Is that just because of this year? No, no, well, I put up some in other places but our water rights aren’t old enough to get (inaudible) our water’s got to come too far. So you aren’t raising anything. Pasture. And cattle. And horses and I do have some horses, but I stand a quarter horse title and it’s a matter of diversifying and doing everything I can. Yes, I shoe horses and I raise horses and my cows and you do everything and self (inaudible) with this and you do everything you can and have to do and then I don’t have to do it, because my wife works! Would you say that’s true in general of ranching up here today? DYeah. That’s just - - is that what everybody’s doing is diversifying? You know, it isn’t just ranching up here, but it’s farming in the Midwest. Usually the farmer can afford it because the wife goes to town and gets a job that has the benefits and then they can afford to farm or quarter ranch it and it’s kind of a new development I guess, if you think about in the last twenty years instead of people staying home and just taking care. It’s one out of necessity because the (inaudible) and shares keeps going higher and higher. You still want to have some quality of life. For myself, I can get by on a lot less of everything and it doesn’t bother me at all, but no, people think you have to have this and you have to have that. I don’t know, I get by on a lot less now. Doesn’t bother me. Anything you want to add? No. Thank you for meeting with me today, I really appreciate the perspective. Sure. End of Tape/ |